[nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
gary066 at yahoo.com
gary066 at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 27 20:25:46 EDT 2009
A lot of the 'high paying' jobs are going unfilled because they are in reality a big pay cut from consulting, not due to a lack of people. It's the free market at work. I have run my own consulting company for the past 5 years - generally we have anywhere between 2 and 10 consultants on projects depending on business cycle; I personally have two CS degrees from Carnegie Mellon and 15 years experience in Java/J2EE/SOA. I have been an employee for 9 of those years, a consultant for 6 (I still bill myself out). The 150K base positions generally result in 60 hour work weeks; no comparison when compared to rates that are in the 90-125hr range for every hour. I have a client in another state with a high level architect position paying 150-175 base. Getting resumes has been extremely difficult - the problem is not a lack of interested people, the problem is they require full time status. That kills the interest.
I have dealt with a lot of PHPers. I've never had one ask for $95. They know their value in general.
Unions are not the answer (I don't see outsourcing as a problem). Unions are for industries where there is little differentiation in productivity. The difference in productivity between a good and bad developer is orders of magnitude.
--- On Wed, 8/26/09, Shahan Avedian <savedian at starpoint.com> wrote:
> From: Shahan Avedian <savedian at starpoint.com>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size projects
> To: "Web" <Webmiester at gmail.com>, "Chauncey Thorn" <chaunceyt at gmail.com>, "Kristina D. H. Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> Cc: "jobs at lists.nyphp.org" <jobs at lists.nyphp.org>
> Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 12:04 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have
> had several people contact me and I will say here what I
> said to them. The 300K package type jobs are not PHP
> positions. They are C++/Java/C# positions
> involved
> with developing trading systems. My point was to
> illustrate many high paying jobs are sitting unfilled here
> in NYC simply because there is not enough people to fill
> them. These jobs are not being outsourced. As a
> recruiter I suffer as much as anyone when
> something is outsourced to India..however everytime gets
> outsourced it seems another skill set is needed here and
> only.
>
>
>
> Below
> is the relevant excerpt from an article that just
> appeared in the New York Times regarding the
> programmer who was caught stealing from Goldman…. This
> guy would be
> a typical example of what we deal with. (Hence 300K
> package is viewed with a yawn).
>
>
> Mr. Aleynikov immigrated to the
> United States from Russia in 1991. In 1998, he joined IDT a
> telecommunications company, where he wrote software to route
> calls and data more efficiently. In 2007, Goldman hired him
> as a vice president,
> paying him $400,000 a year, according to the federal
> complaint against him….. This spring, Mr. Aleynikov
> quit Goldman to join Teza Technologies, a new trading firm,
> tripling his salary to about $1.2 million, according to the
> complaint. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/business/24trading.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Goldman%20Sachs%20and%20programmer&st=cse
>
> As for Drupal/Php
> developers..it is absolute true. Like ANY skill set, your
> going to find people all over the range. I spoke to
> enough of them where people commanding that kind
> of rate is not an aberration.
> As for you Rob, you can
> continue to believe in whatever you would like, amazing at
> how sure you are of yourself.
>
> SA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Web [mailto:webmiester at gmail.com]
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:24 PM
>
> To: Shahan Avedian; Chauncey Thorn; Kristina D. H.
> Anderson
>
> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size
> projects
>
>
>
>
> Shahan,
>
>
>
>
>
> For some reason I just
> don't believe you. Sorry. Your email is
> nonsense.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Shahan Avedian
>
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:51
> AM
>
>
> To:
> Chauncey Thorn ;
>
> Kristina D. H. Anderson
>
>
> Cc:
> jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for
> medium size projects
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am a technical
> recuriter based out of the NYC area. I can tell
> you right now I have jobs paying 150k with 300K total
> package that we cannot find people
> for right in Manhattan. The one's that are
> qualified are all working and won't consider it. I
> speak to consultants all the time who will not get off the
> sofa unless they get 95.00 per hour. ( Some would view
> 95.00 as a pay cut). It all comes down to skill
> set. For every job that is being
> offshored…there are other jobs cannot be offshored nor
> is there any intention of being offshored.
>
>
> Just recently I was
> looking for Strong PHP/Drupal developer…cannot tell
> you how many people I spoke who just wouldn't consider a
> job unless they got paid
> $100.00 per hour. Offshoring is hear to
> stay…its not just in the computer programming
> world. If companies can get the same thing done at a
> cheaper rate its going to go abroad. If they need a
> real heavy hitter its going to stay here. The sooner
> people
> stop viewing themselves as victims and focus on what you
> have control over the quicker you will solve your
> problems. I can tell you first hand there are whole
> classes of programmers who don't share these
> views.
>
>
> SA
>
>
> From: jobs-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> [mailto:jobs-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of Chauncey Thorn
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:46 PM
>
> To: Kristina D. H. Anderson
>
> Cc: jobs at lists.nyphp.org
>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-jobs] looking for medium size
> projects
>
>
> I'm
> not sure a Union would solve the problem. I've been
> exposed to a number of Union workers and they become very
> complacent knowing that they going to be making the same
> regardless. I feel this could de-value
> the profession.
>
>
>
> CT
>
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:02 PM,
> Kristina D. H. Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> wrote:
> I for one am grateful to see the
> passionate opinions being voiced
>
> here. In an industry where so much is expected of us
> in terms of
>
> knowledge and commitment, and which has been subjected like
> no other
>
> profession to the forces of "globalization" (i.e.
> wage reduction), we
>
> do need to consider, really, how offensive it truly is that
> anyone
>
> feels our work is worth "minimum wage".
>
>
>
> And we are subjected to insulting stereotypes which hold
> that "computer
>
> geeks" enjoy their work too much to care about what
> they get paid, or
>
> that all we need are some old T-shirts and some cold pizza
> and we are
>
> good to go...and how much can that cost? Please,
> programmers are not
>
> all the same, and some even have families they need to
> support, or
>
> possibly even other goals besides spending the rest of
> their lives
>
> toiling over a hot text editor for practically no
> money...*GASP*.
>
>
>
> This all comes back to the issue that I feel is at the core
> of
>
> things...the lack of licensing or credentialling
> organizations in our
>
> field that would perform the core functions that they do in
> other
>
> industries...namely to maintain a certain exclusivity of
> talent and to
>
> fight against economic pressures seeking to dampen wage or
> salary rates
>
> in our industry. Or a programmer's union that
> could mandate that the
>
> MINIMUM hourly rate for any union programmer is $40 or $50
> or whatever
>
> they decide on...and make it hard on companies that
> don't use union
>
> programmers...or whatever the solution might be.
>
>
>
> I feel that attempting to take work away from NYC
> programmers by
>
> undercutting our billing rates to the tune of 8 DOLLARS AN
> HOUR should
>
> be explicitly prohibited on this list, because it IS
> offensive, and
>
> even potentially harmful.
>
>
>
> Happy coding everyone,
>
>
>
> Kristina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Folks,
>
> >
>
> > I was not trying to be rude or disrespectful to the
> person who posted
>
> the
>
> > advertisement. I monitor the list for Jobs in
> NYC to see what
>
> employers are
>
> > looking for. Seeing someone posting an Ad for what is
> .75 above
>
> minimum wage
>
> > here. I have ZERO desire to compete with those
> prices regardless of
>
> the
>
> > state of the application after developed.
>
> >
>
> > I've been developing PHP application for over 7
> year and my base
>
> price is 8
>
> > times the lowest they would take to develop an
> application. I'm sure
>
> there
>
> > are other PHP developer here in NYC that are in the
> same boat. Why
>
> would we
>
> > want those types of Ads.
>
> >
>
> > I'm sure there are some skilled PHP developers in
> India that are
>
> willing to
>
> > write applications for 8-15 USD. But no skilled PHP
> developer in the
>
> NY is
>
> > going to work for those prices and I spoke up to halt
> the competition.
>
> > Nothing personal (and I mean that)
>
> >
>
> > To be honest I didn't really have a problem with
> the Ad but when it
>
> said 8 -
>
> > 15 USD. I couldn't let it slide.
>
> > When it comes to "*jobs*" I only care if PHP
> recruiters and/or
>
> developers in
>
> > NYC benefit from this list and that message didn't
> benefit anyone in
>
> NYC.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Paul A Houle <paul at devonianfarm.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Web wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >> I would share this with my friends but I
> don't have any friends in
>
> India.
>
> > >> Nor do I get work from India.
>
> > >> That's why I'm on this NEW YORK
> PHP list. For New York PHP
>
> jobs. NEW
>
> > >> YORK!
>
> > >> Start your own IndiaPHP list.
>
> > >> Thank you,
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > > People in India don't get work from
> India. A big drop in the
>
> dollar
>
> > > would be good because it would bring jobs back to
> the US and
>
> encourage other
>
> > > countries to develop balanced local markets in
> goods and services.
>
> > >
>
> > > There are some world-class organizations
> in India, and there are
>
> a lot
>
> > > of smaller ones that aren't so good.
> Overall, India tends to
>
> underprice
>
> > > software development work (and other white
> collar) done in the US
>
> by about
>
> > > 2/3. In the better cases, you're
> paying for more people and for
>
> people to
>
> > > manage the extra people, and get good
> results. In the worst
>
> cases, you
>
> > > just get ripped.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> > > New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>
> > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>
> > >
>
> > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>
> > > http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
> > >
>
> > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>
> > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Chauncey Thorn
>
> > PHP Developer/Systems Administrator
>
> > email: chaunceyt at gmail.com
>
> > url: http://www.cthorn.com/
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>
>
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Chauncey Thorn
>
> PHP Developer/Systems Administrator
>
> email: chaunceyt at gmail.com
>
> url: http://www.cthorn.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> Since 1982, Starpoint
> Solutions has been a trusted source of human capital and
> solutions. We are committed to our clients, employees,
> environment, community and social concerns. We foster an
> inclusive culture based on trust, respect, honesty and solid
> performance. Learn more about Starpoint and our social
> responsibility at
> http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility
>
>
>
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> to the official business of Starpoint Solutions shall be
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New York PHP Community Jobs Mailing List
>
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>
>
>
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>
> http://www.nyphpcon.com
>
>
>
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
>
>
>
>
> Since 1982,
> Starpoint Solutions has been a trusted source of human
> capital and solutions. We are committed to our clients,
> employees, environment, community and social concerns. We
> foster an inclusive culture based
> on trust, respect, honesty and solid performance. Learn
> more about Starpoint and our social responsibility at
> http://www.starpoint.com/social_responsibility
>
>
>
>
> This email message
> from Starpoint Solutions LLC is for the sole use of the
> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
> disclosure or distribution is prohibited.
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
> message. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
> message that do not relate to the official business of
> Starpoint Solutions shall
> be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
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> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/jobs
>
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>
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