NYCPHP Meetup

[Zeev Suraski]

Charles,

Thanks for the input.  To be honest, we're not in a position where we'd 
consider redoing the entire design of the installation from scratch right 
now, so these far-reaching changes you suggest are probably not going to 
happen in the foreseeable future (even though it would have been a Good 
Thing).    There's simply no time to start doing that from scratch.

I'm still interested in fixing the problems that were found, even if we 
don't turn it to an ideal recoverable installation program.  I'm especially 
interested in hearing about the problems that people bumped into, which 
originally sparked this thread - specific texts you found to be unclear, 
incompatibilities with the way certain distributions are laid out, etc.

Thanks,

Zeev

At 19:24 24/05/2002, charles at softwareprototypes.com wrote:
>Hello Zeev,
>
>there are several things about the script that you might consider
>re-doing. This is criticism but its constructive criticism. That's
>the kind that leads to better products.
>
>Dialog control:
>
>It should consist of the script, [split into two parts: 1) data
>collection/validation and 2) execution,] and a control file of
>labels, explanations and defaults which would at least record user
>input after every question and allow recovery of keystrokes in case
>of a "failure to proceed"
>
>I'd use an XML format file with the following information:
>
><questions>
>  <question>
>   <number> #
>   </number>
>   <text> some meaningful ascii string. Not just the word "root,"
>     but the root of WHAT? Avoid purely generic words.
>     (this makes internationalization easy:
>     just replace the text)
>   </text>
>   <explanation> some meaningful ascii string which explains
>     what the desired value might be and some hints as to how
>     to disambiguate when the user might find many posible values.
>     This should definitely avoid generic words since you want to
>     get the user to provide specific answers.
>     (this also makes internationalization easy:
>     just replace the explanation)
>   </explanation>
>   <default> some value
>   </default>
>   <validation> some Perl code to verify the value (possibly a
>     function/method name to execute which is passed the user
>     supplied/accepted value)
>   </validation>
>   <actual> recorded keystrokes/accepted default, validated value
>   </actual>
>   <ok> NIL | F
>   </ok>
>  </question>
>  ...
></questions>
>
>Dialog flow:
>
>The script should gather all user input first, recording it in the
>XML file and then proceed to the installation portion using the
><actual> information recorded in the XML file.
>
>When an value leads to a script's "failure to proceed" if should, if
>possible, set the <ok> flag to false when it encounters a value that
>leads to script failure (monitor the return values from processes you
>fork off and synch with on their termination.)
>
>If you wanted to get fancy, you might place
>   <condition> value, #
>   </condition>
>and be able to implement a finite state machine which would give you
>some "make" like control and capabilities.
>
>Human-Machine Interface:
>
>The creation of the <explanation> tags is really necessary. Without
>them, even my SysAdmin friend who set up my slackware-8 box and
>modified it to increase its robustness, doesn't want to attempt it.
>
>-Charles-A. Rovira
>276 Varick Street, The Garden,
>Jersey City, NJ, 07302
>(201)434-6088
>-OR-
>28 Vesey Street #2113,
>NYC, NY, 10007-21906
>(646)246-6088
>
>
> > From: Zeev Suraski <zeev at zend.com>
> > Organization: New York PHP
> > Reply-To: talk at nyphp.org
> > Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:09:18 -0400
> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at nyphp.org>
> > Subject: Re: FW: [nycphp-talk] Installing ZendStudio_Server. Anybody
>know how?
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > I got forwarded this letter, and I want to try and gain as much as
>possible
> > from it, in terms of improving the installations so that they fit
> > everyone's needs.  I just want you to know that the guys @Zend are
>really
> > not Redhat-centric, and that installations get tested on most of
>the big
> > distros.  It's impossible to support them all, but we do try :)
> >
> > One thing I firmly believe in is that 'assumption is the mother of
>all
> > mess-ups' (that's the G rated version) - in this case, we assume
>that
> > everything's fine because we don't get bug reports, and you assume
>that
> > we're aware of these problems and feel frustrated that we don't
>care about
> > them enough to fix them.  In reality, apparently, there are
>problems, but
> > we're not aware of them, and the result is negative...  Sorry for
>the short
> > lecture :)
> >
> > As for the problems with the installation, the Perl script,
>assumptions
> > that you believe we make erroneously, unclear questions - please
>let me
> > know about them.  I promise that we'll do our best to fix them in
>the next
> > release (which is coming out very shortly).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Zeev
> >
> >> From: charles at softwareprototypes.com
> >> [mailto:charles at softwareprototypes.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:36 PM
> >> To: NYPHP Talk
> >> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Installing ZendStudio_Server. Anybody
>know
> >> how?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello Hans,
> >>
> >> good thing I'm NOT in a hurry. Still I'd like it installed before
>the
> >> next php course (May's got "canceled".)
> >>
> >> I'll grant that slackware is perhaps not your run-of-the-mill
>distro,
> >> (atually it respects the Linux directory structure more than RedHat
> >> does.) No customized set up will be perfectly compliant with any
> >> scheme. Which makes explanation of the installer questions and
>their
> >> answers even more important.
> >>
> >> Installing on Mac OS X would be a breeze since the ONLY way is the
>OS
> >> X way and the OS X installers don't have to contend with any
> >> directory variance. Apps go in the Applications folder or one of
>its
> >> subfolders and that's that. Host servable Web documents go in
> >> "<startUpDisk>:Library:WebServer:Documents:" User documents go in
> >> "<startUpDisk>:Users:<user>:Sites:"
> >>
> >> However,the Linux world is NOT Mac OS X. Its important to provide
> >> good information so that installation can occur on the various
> >> distributions. I think its a pain that only RedHat's directory
> >> structure is supported right out of the tar file but that's my
> >> opinion.
> >>
> >> Still, its inexcusable that Zend does not provide enough
>information
> >> to let people who are using another distro to "roll their own". I'm
> >> getting used to doing this since RedHat is our 800lb Gorilla
> >> regardless of what I might think, but can't claim to be thrilled at
> >> this "contre-temps" since it only the crappyness of the
>installation
> >> instructions that stands between me, multi-platform clients and a
> >> usable ZendStudio Server.
> >>
> >> -Charles-A
> >>
> >>> From: Hans Zaunere <zaunere at yahoo.com>
> >>> Organization: New York PHP
> >>> Reply-To: talk at nyphp.org
> >>> Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 19:19:42 -0400
> >>> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at nyphp.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Installing ZendStudio_Server. Anybody
> >> know how?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Basically their installer (a perl script) sucks. It asks
>questions
> >>>> that I can't figure out or can't find/disambiguate the right
>answer
> >>>> to. (I do "find / -name '<whatever>' -print" and come up with X
> >>>> answers, which one am I supposed to use?)
> >>>
> >>> Well I don't think I can make it to Jersey City any time soon, but
> >> post
> >>> what the questions are it asks you that are giving you trouble and
> >>> maybe we can get you started.  The Perl script may very well be
> >> poorly
> >>> written, but Slackware is known for not being "your average" Linux
> >>> distro these days; altough I'd never leave it.
> >>>
> >>> Hans Z.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________
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> >
> >